Yesterday, there was a large demonstration organised by the Enough! coalition of NGOs and anti-war groups (e.g. Jews for Justice for Palestinians, War on Want, Stop the War Coalition, etc. etc.) in London against Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians. We began at Lincoln’s Field Inns and marched to Trafalgar Square to hear numerous speakers articulate their opposition to the occupation (some supported a two-state settlement, others were anti-Zionist and favoured a single, democratic state for all its citizens). The atmosphere was good, if at times a bit flaccid, and several thousand people turned up (perhaps as many as 10,000).
Here are some photos from the event. Once again, I must issue the usual preemptive apology for the quality of both my camera and my camera-work.
The basic message of the march.
Gathered in Trafalgar Square to hear the speeches.
Listen to the hand.
A counter-demonstration was held alongside ours. It was much smaller in size – evidently, it is harder to rally people in support of oppression than in opposition to it. Some more:
The annexation wall was not very popular…
Professor Manuel Hassassian, the Palestinian General Delegate to the UK.
Caroline Lucas, Green Party MEP.
Mustafa Barghouti, the Palestinian Minister of Information. He gave a most impressive speech and won loud applause. Apparently, the organisers had invited another two members of the Palestinian government to speak at the demonstration – both were abducted by Israel and are currently rotting in Israeli jails, along with more than a third of the elected members of the 132-seat Palestinian Legislative Council.
Along with Mustafa Barghouti, the most impressive speaker was Natan’l Silverman, an Israeli representative of ‘Combatants for Peace‘, a non-violent peace group composed of former Israeli combat soldiers and Palestinians who had previously been involved in acts of violence. Unfortunately I didn’t get any pictures of him, because I was too busy listening.
A YouTube user has kindly uploaded a video of Galloway’s speech, which can be viewed below:
It’s now over to the Americans later today.
Update: see here for some more pics from the day (v. good quality ones as well – they show the Jerusalem Post’s claim of an attendance of only 2,000 people to be nonsense.)
Update II: For more reports and photos, see here, here, here, here and here.
Filed under: Activism, Israeli / Palestinian, UK | 169 Comments
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Terrific, and great to see such a broad cross-section of attendees in terms of age and background, that’s one thing I was also glad to observe at the (much smaller) Sydney rally. Thanks for the great photographs, and I think you are too self-deprecating
What a great rally for terror! Israel is the bad guy, what a joke. Not a word about Darfur, North Korea, Venezuela, Ruanda, or Tibet? This is just an excuse for anti Semitic self loathing Jews and Cowards to rally with the supporters of hate. This is a hate fest!
Allyson Hatefester, you would do well to look at whose tit Israel has been slobbering at. As a citizen and taxpayer of a complicit democracy, it is my shame to have contributed to Israel’s crimes against humanity and my duty to resist and refuse. It is my responsibility to deny your right to determine history and the future independently of the facts.
“It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the holocaust to adopt a central doctrine of their murderers”–Professor Chomsky.
I just saw Rob Roy last night on TV. Hey those British really know how to occupy when they want. Hmmm, when are the Brits going to leave Ireland, Scotland and the Faulklands.
Why don’t the unions in the UK call for boycotts of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia and the like?
As Martin Luther King said: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.” [ from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ].
Charles,
You are right. How is it that the British are selective on their “occupations”. Over 900 people lost their lives in the war in the Falklands. Why did the British occupy these tiny islands and why did they go to war to protect their colony?
I guess our occupation is good and your occupation is bad. I find it interesting that some in the UK are so guided by hatred of Israel that they forget that their country’s occupation and subsequent battles of the Falklands caused the deaths of 907 humans.
And when are the British museums going to return some of those precious artifacts taken when they were occupying various colonies around the world?
I see the predictable GIYUS hacks have arrived.
Really, Charles and Barbara, didn’t the British people wisely rally against the then government’s decision to invade Iraq? They seem like a pretty wise lot to me — don’t mistaken the British neocons for the British people — isn’t that doing exactly what you try to accuse others of: attempting to level the pathetic charge of anti-semitism for daring to rightly criticise the Israeli government?
I have Israeli friends, I am no more anti-Semitic than I would be “hateful” of South Africa when opposing their apartheid regime.
Some of your tired ploys are on display here: deflect the issue (the issue at hand is not the Falklands, it is Israel, in case you hadn’t noticed); smear the dissenters as ‘haters’.
It is you who are the haters, haters of justice, freedom and a fair go for Palestinians. The world is waking up to your crap. The truth will out.
Aussie3, yes, you are so right. Supporters of Israel are all hate-filled terrorists who plant bombs on buses and blow up pizzerias full of kids.
Aussie3, so you have Israeli friends? I am impressed. Reminds me of Archi Bunker with some of his best friends being Jewish and all… That is so big of you. I think you and Nelson Mandela should sip some tea together and talk about the old days.
Your response to the comments above are simplistic and naive.
Yes, the issue is the Falklands. Yes, it is Tibet. Yes, it is Darfur. It is every cause around the world that does not get the attention it deserved because anti-semites are circling around Israel instead of looking at issues in perspective.
You are the one who hates so much that you would put terrorists on centre stage and applaud them and deflect attention from other humanitarian causes that are so much more important than the Palestinians
Thanks for the demo report, and hey, the photos are fine. Better than what I’ve seen in today’s papers.
As for the Giyus Gang, it’s pretty revealing that they choose to side with the fascist dictator of Argentina, General Galtieri, and not with the Falkland Islanders who wanted (and apparently still want) to remain in British territory.
Hardly surprising, though, given that the Israeli’s like to openly celebrate the murder of Briton’s:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece
Marcus, yes, they were dying for “occupation” just like Scotland loved being occupied. Britain has such a charming way of handling occupation.
peoplesgeography: yeah, it attracted people from all over the country, apparently. In terms of views, there was a range: anti-Zionists, Zionists, two-staters, one-staters, etc. What united us all was the desire to end the occupation.
allyson rowen taylor: yup, you guessed it. Every single one of the thousands of people at the march was either anti-Semitic or a self-loathing Jew. Ugh…
Charles: If Martin Luther King said that, he was wrong. Anti-Zionism is an anti-racist and pro-justice viewpoint. There are many anti-Zionist Jews, for one thing – indeed, if you look on my blogroll you’ll see a blog called ‘Jon the Anti-Zionist Jew’.
As for the boycott – I think it’s a good idea, although that’s not what the rally was about. If the victims of an occupation that we are helping to facilitate come out and ask us to help them by boycotting Israeli goods and academia, how can we refuse?
Canuck – that’s stupid. And to be honest, I’ve got to suspect the motives of someone who’s only response to the systematic destruction of Palestine is to point to the Falklands.
Marcus: Cheers.
JamieSW, last time I looked there was no “Palestine” on the map and if you would look deeper than the boycott which hurts Arabs in israeli universities, would see that the Hamas goal is to wipe Israel off the map.
Oh yeah, I forgot, killing Jews is OK but defending Jews from Arab terrorists is so passe in the UK.
Canuck, don’t waste your breath on Jamie. As you can see, they have to help anyone who come out against those evil dictators.
Let’s see if Jamie comes to the defense of the US who tried to get rid of Saddam Hussain, an evil dictator who was responsible for killing thousands of his citizens.
There are people who hate Jews and it does not matter what the Jews do, they can’t get it right. To these antisemites the only good Jew is a Finklestein or Chomsky.
From Ynet:
“Hamas leader calls for state alongside Israel”:
You are right. It is a fashion statement to be anti-semitic. It happens throught history where populations start doing bood libels and accuse Jews of terrible things. It is beyond reason and sad how people want to be trendy and hate one particular group. Today it is the Jews, tomorrow it will be Pakistanis or Italians. It keeps on coming back to the Jews and their evidence that it is not anti-semitism: There are Jewish anti-zionists, how can they be self hating Jews? The logic is circular and obviously invented by a kindergarten child who digs deep into his intellectual powers to come out with such a strong argument.
(My above comment was not in reply to Canuck’s or anyone else’s – people like him are obviously way beyond rational thought and discussion. I just posted it because it’s an interesting development – although not really a new one, since Hamas has effectively accept Israel within the ‘67 borders for a while now).
Also, FYI, it appears that the demo has been wholly ignored by the mainstream press and the BBC. Surprise, surprise.
It’s been posted, in edited form, on the International Solidarity Movement’s site, here. Many thanks to them for doing so and for doing all the work they do – I hope soon to join them in the OPT.
Canuck,
Was this the speaker or acting speaker of the Palestinian Parliament that is calling for the killing of Americans and Jews?
I guess Finklestein and Chomsky should watch out because they are JEWS, not Zionists and this dude is calling for the killing of Jews.
“You Will Be Victorious” on the face of this planet.
You are the masters of the world on the face of this planet.
Yes, (the Koran says) “you will be victorious”.
but, only “if you are believers”.
Allah willing, you will be victorious.
While America and Israel will be annihilated, Allah willing.
I guarantee you that the power of of belief and faith
Is greater than the power of America and Israel.
They are cowards, as is said in the Book of Allah:
“You shall find them, the people most eager to
protect their lives.”
They are cowards, who are
eager for life, while we are eager for death for
the sake of Allah. This is why America’s nose was
rubbed in the mud in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Somalia
and everywhere. America will be annihilated, while
Islam will remain. “The Muslims will be victorious,
if you are believers.
Oh, Muslims, I guarentee you,
that the power of Allah, is greater than that of
America, by whom many are blinded, today.
Some people are blinded by the power of America.
We say to them, that with the might of Allah, with
the might of his messenger, and with the power of
Allah, we are stronger than America and Israel.
I tell you that we will protect the enterprise of the
resistance, because the zionist enemy understands
only the language of force. It does not understand
peace or the agreements. It does not recognize
anything, and it understands only the language of
force. Our Jihad-fighting Palestinian people salutes
its (sic) brother, Sudan. The Palestinian woman
bids her son, farewell, and says to him “Son, go,
and don’t be a coward. Go and fight the Jews”.
He bids her farewell, and carries out a martyrdom
operation.What did this Palestinian woman say,
when she was asked for her opinion, after the
martyrdom of her son? She said “My son is
my own flesh and blood. I love my son, but my
love for Allah and his messenger is greater, than
the love for my son”.
Yes, this is the message of the Palestinian woman,
who was over 70 years old – Fatima Al-Najjar. She
was over 70 years old, but she blew herself up,
for the sake of Allah, bringing down many criminal
zionists.
Oh, Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters.
Oh, Allah, vanquish the Americans, and their
supporters. Oh, Allah, count their numbers, and
kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh, Allah,
show them a day of darkness. Oh, Allah, who sent
down his book, the mover of the clouds, and who
defeated the enemies of the prophet – defeat the
Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory
over them.
Charles – I think it is the acting speaker. The Israelis arrested the Hamas terrorist speaker.
I guess nobody told this guy that Hamas was now embracing the 2 state solution. It must be hard to contain all that love they learn about. You have to wonder what they teachthese people. They hold up to high esteem a 70 year old woman who killed herself. That is OK but if the Israelis kill a terrorist going to launch kassams at civilians in Sderot – British union twits cry for him.
You have to wonder what they put in UK drinking water.
I wonder how they consider British infidels who support the boycott. Do they lose their infidel status?
Are British Protestant anti-semites or self-hating Jews still infidels or do they become token Muslims?
So many questions and so little time to learn the answers…
Ah hell, lets go have another pint and make some signs for the next demonstration.
These Israeli supporters sound like chldren in the playground saying ‘but they did it, so we can too!”.
The reason why this conflict is so important compared to (many) others is because of the history of the place – is that so difficult to understand? It’s the reason your people stole the land of the Palestinians in the first place after all, isn’t it?
If I lived in a place that was disputed I would expect attacks. Any man that takes his family into a warzone by choice is no man to me, he’s a soldier who’s putting his children at risk – no matter his religion, race or culture – and if you want to argue differently then you’re idiotic and completely lacking in humanity. I feel sorry for the children who must endure the nationalistic brainwashing in the meanwhile as they are the next generation of bastards who will continue the spiral of hatred. If you want peace then YOU have to help create it.
You might now attack me in the typical twisted zionist manner for being ‘anti-semitic’ – but with many Arabs being semetic too it would be a pretty stupid stance to take, so try not to continue as you have been and avoid that stance. I am anti-Zionist because Zionism is a *political movement* that I find deeply offensive to my human/e sensibilities. I am very much not alone in that, and even if I were I’d still say the same.
Faceless,
Yes, please lecture us children about the history of the Palestinian people. Tell us about the Palestinian governments, about the huge Palestinian cities that were built prior to 1948. Tell us about the origins of the Palestinian nation. I’m especially anxious to hear about the huge population that was displaced when Jews were finally allowed to move back enmasse. Please site the League of Nations statistics on the population of Palestine before large scale Jewish immigration started again.
Palestine was a wasteland that drew Arabs from neighbouring countries because of the prosperity that came as a result of the Jewish presence.
You have a lot of nerve telling me that my relative slaughtered in Rwanda were not as important as the Palestinian cause brought to the world stage via airplane hijackings and killing olympic athletes.
You are telling us about disputed land? You have to expect the British to take a beating in the Malvinas, in India, Afghanistan, Iraq and so many other countries tha the British raped and colonized.
You have alot of nerve telling us that the Palestinian cause is so important because the history of Israel is more important than the history of Rwanda, Darfur, Tibet or Cuba.
If you have nothing positive to say just shut up and listen to the other because you sure as hell have an idiotic sense of right and wrong.
Canuck, you’re an idiot. The only one trying to rank suffering is you, by using causes like Tibet as a political tool to deflect criticism from Israel. It also ignores the fact that British citizens are far more responsible for, and have a greater ability to change, Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians.
As for your ‘history’ of the conflict – suffice to say, what you write is flat-out contrary to the near consensus modern historical position. You’re basically parroting Joan Peters’ laughable and widely discredited thesis about most of the refugees expelled in ‘48 being recent immigrants. It’s bullshit – read Morris’ ‘Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem’, for example. There was a massive ethnic cleansing in 1948, a crime against humanity. Those who continue to deny that today are simply not to be taken seriously.
Canuck, well said!
To faceless:
1) I am not saying that the Brits raped, murdered, plundered and colonized, therefore Israel should be allowed to do the same. Israel doesn’t. There is a huge difference when an Israeli helicopter targets a kassam rocket crew launching from a refugee camp and innocent people are killed and an Arab terrorist that walks into a pizzeria in downtown Jerusalem and blows the place up killing men, women and children. If you can’t see the difference I suggest you move into Gaza for a week or two, but don’t tell the Arab terrorists that you are a BBC journalist. They have turned against the journalists that have spouted on their behalf.
2) I am saying that when you target Israel and set up this “double standard” and forget about the other causes, you fall in to the category that Natan Sharansky calls the three D’s and yes, it crosses over into the world of anti-semitism. Saying someone is going to accuse you of being anti-semitic is childish and I suggest you learn a bit more about the conflisct before you show your ignorance and post about “The reason why this conflict is so important … “
Thanks Charles.
Too bad my comments are being censored on this blog.
It is obvious that freedom of speech applies to antisemites but not “zionists”.
Typical.
Canuck, I’ve given you and Charles ample space to spout your offensive crap, but enough’s enough (so to speak). This isn’t a place for people like you and Charles to just back-and-forth with each other insulting everyone else who comments and propagating your nonsense, and when you go so far as to accuse/imply/suggest that my parents are anti-Semites, then I think you have no right to complain about “freedom of speech”. If you want to post crap like that, go to LGF. They’d love to have you (in fact, you’re probably already a member). But stop dirtying my blog.
‘If you have nothing positive to say just shut up and listen to the other because you sure as hell have an idiotic sense of right and wrong.’
Your short-sightedness is painful to observe as with attitudes like yours prevailing there will never be peace. You should look inside yourself and try to find the reasons for your anger and hatred. I guarantee it’s nothing to do with Palestinians or any other group of people. It’s to do with your own inability to develop as a human. And that’s just sad.
Thanks for the post, Jamie! I have linked to it. Great pictures!
Ellissharp has some great material as well.
Cheers. Yeah, as Ellissharp says, the BBC appears to have simply totally ignored the biggest “pro-Palestinian” (I don’t like using that term, but anyway) demonstration in London’s history. They did, however, run a report on the 700 naked bike riders – perhaps if there were 10-20,000 naked pro-Palestinian demonstrators, the press would have covered them. So to speak.
JamieSW, I have enjoyed reading your blog in the past but find that what you did today to be very rude and biased. We can’t win when we act the way you did today.
You called Canuck an idiot and then cut him off. How much of a coward are you that you can’t handle the response. It seems that you can dish it out but can’t take it.
Shame on you.
Susan – he is an idiot. Anyone who goes around calling those who disagree with them anti-Semitic, accusing them of “support[ing] dictators” and thinking it’s “OK to kill the Jews”, doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. He has not come for a reasonable discussion, he just came to insult everyone (he also told another commenter to “shut up”). If that’s what he wants to do, fine, but I don’t have to let the comments section here become like it is over at LGF. It’s not like he didn’t have the chance to give his views about the demo – he posted many comments in this thread. But once he gets to the point of simply calling everyone anti-Semites without substantiation, I feel no obligation to provide him a platform (admittedly, an incredibly small platform), and certainly no shame in failing to do so.
Jamie, I agree with Susan. You threw the 1st punch when you called him an idiot.
If you moderate a blog you need to have a thicker skin. It does not matter what he called your momma, you can’t get personal.
Oh Christ – this is a bit of a distraction from the topic, so my last word on the subject: it’s not about “thicker skin”. What “Canuck” said didn’t bother me in the slightest. The point is that he’s clearly not here for a sincere discussion, and thus his comments are effectively nothing more than spam. Sadly, this particular spam was not picked up by the filter, and so I had to remove it manually.
Sometimes it is a fine line between legitimate critics of Israel and anti-semitism. I read the article by Sharansky that one of the posters referred to. It is important reading for anyone entering the debate on Palestine. Sharansky was a legend in his time and stood up to the Soviet regime. We have a lot to learn from him.
I was pleased to see that you posted pix of both sides of the demo.
I don’t think it’s really a “fine line” at all. You either hate Jews or you don’t. As with any other accusation, the burden of proof is on the accuser. But what we’ve seen here, and it is quite common when discussing this topic, is the random flinging of the “anti-Semitism” smear at anyone who criticies Israeli policies. It’s a win-win situation for the accuser, because either the person being accused ignores it, in which case people begin think that the allegations might have some truth in them, or he/she wastes time and effort rebutting the charge, thereby distracting from the important issue, which is the Israeli occupation.
When I got married my friends wanted to know ho my spouse “fought” in an argument. It says a lot about a person in the way they approach a relationship.
We can’t get bogged down with dirty fighting. We have to stay away from the easy pot-shots of antisemitism. You must read the Sharansky article on the three D’s. You will learn to appreciate why Jews are sensitive about anti-semitism.
The issue is NOT the Israeli occupation. The issue is creating a better world for Palestinians AND Jews. If you thought it was just the occupation… then maybe Canuck was more correct than you realize.
Khadijah, I am a Jew, and everyone is sensitive about racism of any kind (and rightly so). Creating a better world, i.e. one based on the principles of peace and justice, involves ending the occupation and honouring Palestinian rights. That is the issue.
Jamie,
Your religion is not the issue. It is how we treat one another. Ending the occupation is only part of a larger issue. How can both sides sit down together to break bread and grow together when you use words that are so one sided. We must understand where the other side is coming from and reason with them. After all, we all have children, we all need to eat we share common values that make us more similar than different. We have to stop to “listen” to our opponents.
Creating a better world also means stopping the Palestinian violence against innocent civilians. This also makes a better world and thinking that occupation is the only evil out there is a child’s fantasy. There are issues on both sides. You have become fixated on one issue, the occupation. Israelis have become fixaed on ending terrorism. Is your idea of creating a better world by ending the occupation any more important than the Israeli goal of ending what they call terror any more important?
Both will end one day but how we get there and what we become enroute changes us forever. Don’t become the fighter against your own people. Stay true to who you are but don’t become consumed by hate because at the end of the day it will consume you too.
I was saddened by seeing what you did to your opponents today. We could have engaged them in intellectual challenges. It was inappropriate to call Canuck an idiot. The conversation just ends at that point and nobody wins. You become like them.
I thought JamieSW put up with a lot of annoying and stupid provocation in this discussion: okay, say Canuck is saying stupid things is a lot more politer. But the purpose of people like Canuck and Charles isn’t to have debate it’s to ensure that criticism of Israel is delegitimized. The boycott debate makes it look like this is being undermined – and the response is going to get much much worse – and stupider.
BTW: don’t believe this is the biggest ‘pro-Palestinian’ demo: after Jenin in 2002 there was a really huge one organised by Muslim groups and the equivalent of this demo sounds at least as big.
badmat,
I don’t believe you understood a word I wrote. This is not a soccer match.
Khadijah,
You are right, this is not a soccer match. You are also right to point out that some Israelis have been adversely affected by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
However, it is also wrong to assume that there is a clean 50-50% blame to be levelled at each side. The average life doled out to the average Palestinian in the West Bank – never mind the hell that is Gaza – is several magnitudes worse than the average Israelis on almost any given measure. For example, many Palestinians face draconian travel restrictions, which for many means that they cannot leave their own town or village, never mind travel to Jerusalem or Gaza. If you are sick, or old or injured travel restrictions can mean the difference between life and death.
Israel has total control over every border from the West Bank and Gaza. Everything – including people, water, goods, electricity, food going or leaving is entirely controlled by them. Under International Law, as the occupying force they are totally responsible for the welfare of those in the West Bank and Gaza.
On a purely human rights level, the facts are absolutely clear, as Amnesty International and the World Bank have clearly showed in recent reports.
Let me be clear: violence by Palestinians against Israelis is totally wrong and self defeating. But when your house has been confiscated by the IDF to use as a military look-out post, your lands cut off by a security wall, your finances restricted, your elderly embarrassed, your whole nation made to feel about as important as a bowl of mouldy falafel, it is not particularly surprising when you walk the path of violence. And these are the daily experience of the Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza.
The future for peace is entirely held in the hands of the Israelis. Palestinians are ready to talk about peace based on negotiations starting at the 1967 green line and peaceful co-existance with Israel. Until Israelis remove the settlements, allow Palestinians self-determination, a deep water port, an airport and so on – together with a nation based on 1967 borders, there will never be peace because the Palestinian will justifiably feel hard-done-by.
We who profess to support Palestinians also need to reexamine our behaviour. Boycotts of Israeli products and institutions are largely counterproductive. No Palestinian academic is going to have a better life by spurning Israeli academics who have nothing to do with the situation. Given that more than 90% of trade outside of the West Bank and Gaza is by or via Israel, we have to be awake to the idea that by boycotting Israeli products we might also be boycotting Palestinian ones. We might not like how Agrexco operates, but to the Gazan strawberry farmer, there is no alternative buyer. Until more people are prepared to do what we have tried to do – albeit stutteringly and badly – ie trading directly with the Palestinians and looking for new markets for their products, we are not helping. We do not need an Israeli boycott, we need a Palestinian reverse boycott. And we need it fast. The Palestinian economy is on the brink of a total collapse.
joe: Thanks for commenting. You correctly point out that Khadijah creates, or attempts to create, a false symmetry between what Israel is doing and what the Palestinians are doing. Firstly, on a humanitarian level there is, as you say, no comparison. But more than that, the whole paradigm is one of an occupier and the occupied; an oppressor and the oppressed; the fourth-ranking military power on the planet, backed by the unrivalled global military superpower, and an essentially defenceless population; an aggressor and its victims. This is an utterly assymetrical situation.
I disagree with you that all Palestinian violence against Israelis is “wrong”, at least in the legal sense. Everyone everywhere has the right to resist an unwanted military occupation, using violence if necessary. Certainly, however, I agree that Palestinian attacks targeting civilians are wrong.
As for the boycott issue – I disagree. What a boycott does is undermine Israel’s international legitimacy, and that is critical. As Prof. Finkelstein has pointed out, if you get into an argument with a so-called “pro-Israel” advocate, they absolutely love pointing to the 1947 UN Partition Plan and the Balfour Declaration. Why? Because of the international legitimacy they conferred.
Indeed, you can tell that a boycott has the potential to have an effect by the sheer hysteria with which the Israeli government has responded to it – Livny and Tamir (the Foreign and Education ministers, respectively) , for example, have even agreed to set up a “task force” to produce propaganda to swing British public opinion away from a boycott. That they are so terrified of a boycott is a sign of its potential ability to catalyse change.
If the victims of an oppressive occupying regime in which we are complicit come out and explicitly ask us to boycott Israeli goods and academia, as the Palestinians have done, I think we should show solidarity and oblige.
This blog has some good stuff about the boycott. See also here.
Bravo, Jamie, for this post and for your comments on this thread.
Thanks mirth.
excellent pictures, thanks for sharing.
cheers. y’welcome!
Joe and Jamie, thanks for being supportive but you don\’t have a clue of what life is like here.
Everyone wants to leave not just because of conditions but because we have corrupt leaders. Where does all the money disappear to? I don\’t live in Rimal but those that do don\’t seem to breathe the same air as the rest of us.
It is time to compromise. It is time to sit down and talk without the pre-conditions that will never be met. Time is passing, children are growing up lacking and what do we have in the end? What will be achieved by blasting Kassams into Sderot? More dead, more violence, more hate and more misery.
If you really cared about us you would stop protesting the occupation and start protesting our corrupt leadership. Stop being blind to the issues. Approach it with a wholistic view of helping those that need. Stop being the obnoxious soccer fan who shouts and screams without understanding the issues.
I see that my my voice is wasted here. This blog is just another hatefest of those that feel that violence is legitimate in the name of resistance against the occupation. More dead, more injured and the rich get richer.
The situation could change overnight if the quartet\’s 3 conditions are met. Simple. Lives would change overnight. Have you ever thought about why these men refuse? They only know violence. They don\’t know how to run schools, hospitals, universities. How boring life would be when you could shoot your guns in the air whenever you want. After a revolution you need to get down to the basics. Picking up garbage (not just in Rimal) proper healthcare… the list goes on and on.
I am out of here.
great pics. Thanks. I have yet to find any mention in the press even tho rallies took place around the world. Not a surprise.
BTW-as you probably, know the Zionists train people (mostly students – which can be deduced from their juvenile statements) who do nothing all day but search for websites like this so they can “respond”. They are not responding, nor are they looking for discussion. They are trained to spew out their nonsense, and if possible attack the site. They want to *prevent* discussion. So Jamies is quite correct to cut them off.
ellen
Yes, those zionists can’t be trusted. Everything they say is nonsense.
Khadijah: That Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation, using violence if necessary, is not a matter of opinion. It’s not something over which we can agree or disagree. They do have that right.
Whether they should exercise that right is something else. I’m with you – I don’t think violence has accomplished anything positive for the Palestinians, I think it’s counterproductive and so it should stop.
As for the Quartet conditions – first of all they are unjust in and of themselves, but secondly, and more importantly, they are only being applied to the Palestinians. Israeli is not being asked to recognise a Palestinian state within the defined borders, Israel is not being asked to respect previous agreements and Israel is certainly not being asked to renounce violence.
You seem to have bought the line that Israel really does want to talk to Hamas, if only they’d accept its right to exist. In fact, Israel and the U.S. had decided even before Hamas got into power that a Hamas government would be intolerable. And so, since January 2006, they’ve been working to overthrow it. That is the context in which the “Quartet principles” must be viewed – they are simply another excuse to enable Israel to avoid having to negotiate.
Have you forgotten the way Israel treated Abbas before Hamas came into power? Or the way it treated Arafat? Both these men accepted what are now called the Quartet principles”, and what did it get them? Serious peace negotiations? No. Improvements in Palestinian quality of life? No. Backing from the international community? No. What it got them was more settlements and the annexation wall.
The money does not go through your leaders. The international aid is deliberately not delivered through the governing institutions so as to bypass Hamas. A consequence of this is that it can do much less. It’s as Dov Weisglass, an aide to PM Olmert, said last year: the strategy is to put the Palestinians “on a diet” but not to kill them. Well, the international boycott is for putting the Palestinians “on a diet”, and the increase in aid is to prevent Palestinian from dying en masse (which would be very bad for PR).
I think Hamas refuses to accept the Quartet conditions because it realises that the very fact that Israel is insisting on them as preconditions to negotiations shows that it isn’t serious about negotiations, and so accepting them would bring about very little in the way of improvement. Israel would simply raise the stakes again.
You can say that this blog is a “hatefest” if you want, but so far you’ve yet to actually disagree on anything factual. I don’t “hate” anything but Israeli government policies – and I focus on what Israel does as opposed to what the Palestinians do for two reasons. Firstly, as the occupier Israel holds most of the cards and most of the responsibility. Secondly, as an Israeli and British citizen, I am far more complicit in Israel’s actions than I am in Hamas’ actions, and moreover I have a far greater ability to change them.
Khadijah,
I have no idea where ‘here’ actually is for you, but I have a business trading directly with Palestinians and I have visited Palestinians in West Bank towns on several occasions. So kindly don’t talk to me as if I have not been there and seen it with my own eyes.
Endemic corruption within the PA may or may not exist as you suggest, but that is as nothing compared to the effects of the Israeli occupation. Whilst it has some power, the PA has limited control over the lives of Palestinians. This is just a fact.
Ultimately, to paraphrase Gandhi, if there was independance and corrupt leaders, at least they would be corrupt Palestinian leaders. Given that Hamas was elected in the fairest election in the Middle East, it is not legitimate for the quartet to lay down rules about how the Palestinian mandate should be changed to be legitimate.
I have no love for Hamas (or for that matter Fatah), but it cannot be argued that they were not elected fair-and-square.
Jamie – I agree that Palestinians have a right to use violence. I’m not sure that is a debateable point. But I am arguing that it is entirely counter-productive and useless as a strategy to achieve Palestinian self-determination.
Regarding your other points, I think you and I listen to different people. Palestinian businessmen, who after all are supporting a large percentage of the population given that public workers are not being paid, tell me frequently that they are sick of hearing people talking about an Israeli boycott – as it directly impacts upon their businesses. NGOs often talk about boycotts without having really considered the effects on the ground, in my experience.
In the last five years, many of the surviving businesses have lost their Israeli customers. There has not been any corresponding pick-up in direct business with anyone outside of the region, so many have just closed. In a vacuum, an Israeli boycott without any corresponding increase in direct buying of Palestinian products is a recipe for disaster.
Yes Jamie, and Islamists have the right to resist the Brits by putting bombs on the tube whenever they want. Resistance to British occupation of Northern Ireland is frowned upon but it is OK to resist the occupation by killing innocent British citizens.
You believe killing women and children civilians is “COUNTERPRODUCTIVE” so you think it should stop. Did you drink the purple Kool Aid? You cry for the poor Palestinians yet you think killing Jewish civilians is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE”. What a warped sense of morality.
Now I understand why that Muslim woman called this blog a hatefest.
joe: Yes, Israel has deliberately in recent years tried to cut down on its use of Palestinian labour and business. You say that a boycott of Israeli goods would be disastrous for Palestinians – I have to say, I’ve never heard that opinion expressed before (all the NGOs and trade unions and most of the prominent Palestinian intellectuals/public figures seem to think differently). However, if what you say is true, then obviously I agree that it would be a bad idea. That doesn’t impact on an academic boycott, however, although there are possibly some other reasons to object to that.
I agree with you that violence is counter-productive – that’s what I said in the previous comment.
Charles: I said Palestinian have the right to violently resist. That’s a fact. However, there is legitimate violent resistance and illegitimate violent resistance. Deliberate attacks on civilians are not legitimate; attacks on soldiers/security forces are. It is telling that you automatically conflate violent resistance with terrorism.
Jamie, I did not put words in your mouth. You said: “That Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation, using violence if necessary, is not a matter of opinion. It’s not something over which we can agree or disagree. They do have that right.
Whether they should exercise that right is something else. I’m with you – I don’t think violence has accomplished anything positive for the Palestinians, I think it’s counterproductive and so it should stop.”
I don’t see you speaking out against killing jewish women in anywhere near the same tone as you do for calls to help the poor Palestinians.
Hatefest it is…
“Palestinian have the right to violently resist. That’s a fact.” is your opinion, not a fact.
No, an occupied people have a right to resist. It isn’t an opinion, it is a statement of fact.
As it happens, I consider the Jewish woman to have exactly the same right to life as the Palestinian woman. Just in case you were wondering.
Jamie, there are published papers about the way that the Palestinian economy works. Paltrade, the organisation representing privately owned Palestinian businesses, often produce interesting information – http://www.paltrade.org
The Jerusalem Stone quarries are a particularly good example. These are only located in Hebron and around Bethlehem, yet the majority of businesses which market this particular type of limestone around the world are Israeli. Very few Palestinian quarries are able to compete directly in the international market. There are no quarries inside Israel, so all of this stone is originating inside the West Bank. The questions that then have to be answered are a) would an Israeli boycott help and b) is there anything that can be done that would be more helpful to the Palestinian economy in general and the poorest Palestinian lives in particular?
Unless we attempt to answer these questions, I cannot see how a simple boycott can be said to be helping anything.
Joe, you can call whetever you want “fact” at the end of the day it is Joe Who and Jamie who believe it.
Since you are assigning facts, can you also give the OK to suicide bombers in the London Tube? After all, they are resisting occupation and they have the same rights as any other terrorist to resist. Iraqis and Afghanis have the right to attack Britain because after all, “an occupied people have a right to resist”. So what if they kill innocent women and chidren. It might be “counterproductive” as Jamie says, but they have the “right” tro resist.
And then lets talk about other resistance movements. They have the right to shoot Exocet missles at British ships in the Malvinas/Falklands because Britain is occupying land half way around the world. When are the British going to give up that colony? Killing 200 British citizens should be justified in your eyes because after all, “an occupied people have a right to resist”.
How about Northen Ireland and Scotland. When are thos occupations going to end? It is OK for the IRA to kill Brits because after all, “an occupied people have a right to resist”.
Your reasoning comes back to your faulty logic and reveals your hatred of Jews.
Hey, I just checked out the rest of your blog and it apopears that Jamie has been very busy supporting the cousins’ cause. Unfortunately he has neglected a more important humanitarian issue, DARFUR. Wait, he hasn’t totally neglected Darfur. There are a number of articles. How many did you ask? Drum roll please….. SEVEN. Well, seven is respectable. There must have been a lot of comments from other readrs for this important cause? Yes, there were. I counted… drum roll please… FOURTEEN comments. And how many entries are there listed under Israel and Palestinian? Drum roll please… ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY!!!! With thousands of comments, that makes it the number one regional issue on Jamie’s blog.
Tell a woman from Darfur after she has been raped and her kids slaughtered that anyone who tells others that they need to focus on that issue is deflecting from the important issue of Palestinian occupation.
joe: Your argument is interesting, and I didn’t really know how to respond at first. So I put it to someone else to see what they thought. Here’s their reply:
I think it’s a good point. The problem is the whole situation of a Palestinian “economy” that depends totally and completely on Israel’s arbitrary and hostile rule. The argument that we should work to help keep this system afloat just so that the Palestinians can continue receiving its pathetic and totally inadequate trickle-downs seems ridiculous. If it is the case – and I think that it is (see Finkelstein, for example) – that none of the governments that matter are willing to take the necessary action to put an end to the occupation, it falls to us as citizens to do it for them.
Jamie – I’m sorry, I don’t agree with your quotee. There are no sanctions against Palestinian products. The sanctions simply mean that aid is not being given to the PA (although, of course, a stupidly high number of people are totally dependent on foreign hand-outs and the PA is powerless to function effectively without them).
We must examine what it is that we want to do. If we actually want to help Palestinians we cannot pull the rug out from under their feet with respect to their current Israeli customers without at the same time strenously working to ensure that there are other international customers to replace them.
Palestinian products should be like gold-dust around the world. It is shameful that they are not already.
I am not willing to sacrifice the lives of my friends who I personally know work in factories which supply Israeli companies. They either work with Israelis or don’t eat. If you want to talk about boycotts, spend at least the same amount of time finding other markets for the products. That is all I am saying.
Charles – if my nation decides to use military means around the world, I should expect to see some of the violence rebounding onto me. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword, as someone famous once said.
No, it is not ‘OK’. But ultimately it is not ok for me to live in a life of luxury whilst people scrabble around in the dirt for any semblance of a life in Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, Dafur or anywhere. I must take some responsibility for the state that the world is in. There are many reasons for poverty and violence around the world – and I am one of them.
There is a cold logic to violence – if you take my ear, I have a right to take yours. If you dishonour my grandmother, I dishonour yours. It is not many steps from there to believe that because of your oppression, I am entitled to take your civilians as targets for my military campaign. Far from being lacking in logic, it is the most natural thing in the world, from the school playground onwards.
In my religious tradition, we believe there are no differences between people. None between Jew and Arab, Muslim and Christian and Agnostic and Communist and any other label people use. We all have the capacity to perform great works of love and great works of hatred. Sometimes circumstances mean that it is very difficult to break out of the institutional hatred of the society within which we live – and which may be making demands and wars which we do not support.
The line between good and evil does not fall between people, but through every human heart. Arabs are not all bad. Palestinians are not all terrorists. Jews are not responsible for every problem in the world. They are all just people, sometimes very hurt, very broken, very angry people – wanting a better life and to protect their families into the future. Until we seek to understand the motivations behind the actions we find so deplorable, we can never hope to solve the problems.
joe, I don’t think Charles’ comment is even worth replying to. He again conflates violent resistance with deliberate attacks on civilians, showing no recognition that this point had already been dealt with in only the previous comment. (And certainly, the people of Iraq do have the right to resist, and using violence if necessary. See here, for example.)
As for the boycott, I think you have to realise that this boycott is being strenuously asked for by the Palestinian trade unions. I.e. by the very people who represent those who you claim would suffer. Palestinian life today is an absolute misery, with no hope in sight of an end because our governments are not willing or able to take action. It is therefore up to us as individuals and as citizens of those complicit governments to take action for them – that a boycott could have an effect is, if nothing else, demonstrated by the hysterical Israeli reaction to it. It undermines the veneer of international legitimacy upon which Israel and the occupation depends.
I agree that we should try to buy Palestinian products, although I don’t recall ever seeing one on the shelf.
You say that you’re not willing to sacrifice the lives of your friends – well, obviously. But you’ve got to recognise that the primary cause for the Palestinian suffering is the occupation. Palestinian will continue to suffer horrendously until the occupation is brought to an end, and if a boycott can help to do that – as I think it can and as most Palestinians seem to think it can – then we must show solidarity and boycott.
Joe, your post brought tears to my eyes but it was lacking moral balance. You see, it is true that the Jew and Arab are the same, (reminds me of the old Donovan song…He’s a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain, a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew…)
Bottom line, when you focus on one “occupation” to the exclusion of others it is anti-Semitism. Jamie, a Jew, has chosen to post 170 critiques of Israel yet only 7 on Darfur. That is one of the three “D’’s” that Natan Sharansky calls anti-Semitism.
Yes, I have seen his silly carton on the site with the world being taped up by the charge of anti-Semitism but it does NOT mean that the charge is false. It means that he and others know it is real and try and deflect the charge because it is true. Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.
Don’t take my word for it, after all, I am a Zionist and can’t be trusted. Take the words of someone Jamie (a Jew) posted on twice. Yes, two posts dedicated to the words of this man. I would not be surprised if he removes this post or the two other posts on Martin Luther King because MLK said what I say today: “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are TALKING ANTI-SEMITISM.” There is legitimate criticism of Israel, but not when it is at the ratio of 170 to 7. Not when you turn a blind eye to the suffering of Jews, your own peope.
That man is no other than Martin Luther King…
On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are TALKING ANTI-SEMITISM.”
Jamie – Palestinians are responding to the only form of solidarity they hear from the international movements. The reality on the ground is that normal workers are not engaged in a boycott of either buying or supplying Israeli products. If you like, next time I go I can take you to factories and show you.
I have spent two years of my life proving that with a little knowledge and energy it is possible to export products from Palestine. We have bought the lie that says it is impossible without trying it. We have slipped into a mindset that says boycott, boycott, boycott to the exclusion of anything else. But in this circumstance a boycott is very unlikely to succeed in the timescales that the Palestinians actually need to survive – basically because Israel enjoys a large amount of support internationally, so there would never be a large enough boycott to actually make a difference. Meanwhile the Palestinians who survive by supplying Israeli companies are sacrificed on the altar of our solidarity movements. Buying Palestinian products is the only way, boycotting is a dead end strategy.
Palestinian products are for sale in the UK. Olive oil for example – http://www.zaytoun.org . Much more can and should be done.
Charles, for your information, I have been engaged in worrying about human rights abuses in Sudan for the last 10 years – far before the world’s media started talking about it. Not that I see why that makes any difference whatsoever – there are plenty of other conflicts and issues around the world that I do not have time and resources to do much about.
This situation is an occupation as defined by International Law and UN Security Council resolutions. You might not like that, but in itself, your feelings change nothing at all.
Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. There are plenty of non-zionist Jewish groups. Plenty of Jewish solidarity groups that resist the Palestinian occupation. Plenty of individual Jews and Israelis who accept that the situation in Palestine is not just and are working to bring justice to the situation.
MLK was a great man, but on this I think he was wrong. I feel no shame in saying that, all our heros are just human after all. Also, many other members of the American civil rights movements who are now speaking out about the occupation.
The bottom line is this: Jews were treated terribly by Europeans during the twentieth century. Why do the Palestinians have to bear the brunt of their legitimate fury?
Joe,
Thanks for the tip. Lets help spread the word to boycott http://www.zaytoun.org. After all, why should only Jews be the subject of boycotts.
Yes, thats right, Charles. You go and boycott it.
Do you have anything else to say or are we to assume that you are just using tactics designed to ridicule and then ignore facts you dislike?
joe:
I think it’s the other way around. There are plenty of other forms of solidarity, in any event – see the ISM, for example.
Well, obviously. They are not in a position to boycott the machine on which they depend for survival. Moreover, a boycott of Israel by Palestinians would have very little, if any, effect. International pressure is what is needed.
If, as you say, it is possible to buy Palestinian products and have the money go directly to Palestinians, then of course I agree that we should do that. But that’s no substitute for ending the occupation, which is the primary cause of Palestinian suffering.
Jamie, I guess we’re arguing in circles. I don’t believe a boycott is not going to end the occupation, simple as that.
Well, I know what I meant!
The UN? You are quoting the UN as an authority?
Bro, where have you been?
The UN did away with the dysfunctional Commission on Human Rights. You might be familiar with their work in Durban. The conference became another hatefest and even dedicated UN lifers like Koffi Anan realized that the Commission had lost all credibility with the anti-semitic hatefest and lack of accomplishments. What could you expect when the chair of the Commission on Human Rights is none other than LIBYA and it had Sudan as a member.
So, they inaugurated UN Human Rights Council. Secretary-General Annan, who envisioned a new body comprised of members with solid records of human rights commitment. Who are the illustrious members of the new, improved council? None other than the guardians of human rights: China, Cuba, Russia and Saudi Arabia. Now they can finally tackle serious human rights abuses around the world – wrong.
They have not even bothered to issue a single censure of Sudan once during their last session.
The UN has become a dysfunctional organization.
You might not like that, but in itself, your feelings change nothing at all.
Joe,
You just compared Jewish treatment by Nazis to Palestinan treatment by Jews. (You said: The bottom line is this: Jews were treated terribly by Europeans during the twentieth century. Why do the Palestinians have to bear the brunt of their legitimate fury?)
You just lost your argument and showed your feelings about Jews. In case you are not familiar with Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies: “…once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically “lost” whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin’s Law.”
You obviously must read Sharansky’s essay on the 3 D’s. We have already read your statement which Sharansky dealt with under the 1st D (Double Standard):
Joe wrote: “there are plenty of other conflicts and issues around the world that I do not have time and resources to do much about.”
Now, we see the 2nd “D”, demonization.
Sharansky wrote: “…when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz – this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.”
Joe, the Talmud poses a question on why the stork is called a “chasida”, a word meaning “kindness” in Hebrew. They answer that it is kind towards other storks. The Talmud goes on to ask why the bird is not kosher. The response is that it is only kind to its own and not to others. You may show kindness towards Palestinians but ignore the plight of others.
When you compare the treatment of Jews by Nazis to the treatment of Palestinians you are an out-and-out Anti-Semite.
Yes, Godwin’s Law.
Joe you really lost that one.
Charles, you were kind to point out that Joe was caring to others but I would not be as kind. He really has shown his true colors and his anti-semitism. I read the Sharansky article you pointed out and you are right, you can be critical of Israel but have to watch for the 3 Ds. Joe has shown his 2 Ds already and I’ll bet will go for the 3rd D is he has not already.
Thanks Helen. Someone has to call the emperor naked.
What really surprised me is that he didn’t even disguise his anti-Semitism by calling them “Zionists”, he went ahead and called them “Jews”. He must not get challenged on his anti-Semitism.
But I wonder if he feels that way about Jamie (who is Jewish) or if Jamie is a “good” Jew and I am a “bad” one.
I don’t know why Jamie looks up to Joe.
Sigh. Where are you people coming from?
Joe: I agree that a boycott will not end the occupation by itself. But it will undermine Israel’s veneer of international legitimacy and go some way towards persuading the relevant governments to, at the very least, be slightly less rabidly anti-Palestinian in their policies.
Godwin’s Law for sure. And most likely he is an antisemite.
Joe: This report is quite good, although it mainly discusses sanctions as opposed to a boycott..
Godwin’s Law.
Charles, the new Human Rights Commission has been more than disappointing. It is criminal how the UN has been hijacked by countries that abuse human rights. Durban was a fiasco and now this past year watching the HR Commission waste their time is painful.
When good people take a stand against injustice, call them an anti-semite! It’s so easy to win an argument that way. Resort to name calling and ignore the issue. There are a lot of wrongs in the world, Israels OCCUPATION of Palestine is one of them.
That argument of Israel defending itself is the biggest bunch of bullshit anyone has ever uttered. Yes there are terrorist attacks against Israel but there are just as many (even more in fact) terrorist attack against the Palestinians. Hamas uses suicide bombers, Israel uses US made jets and tanks.
Oil had a special place in the life of Jesus.
John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” I assume he was talking about a lamp lit with olive oil.
I feel that we need to do everything we can to help the Jews of Israel. They have suffered so much at the hands of Arab terrorists and I feel that oil, which can light a lamp, just lit up in my mind.
Thank you for the idea of a boycott of Zaytoun olive oil. I have looked at their site and I do not see any evidence that their farms are on Palestinian land and not taken from Jews. So much land has been “claimed” by Palestinians and proven by historical records to belong to Jews. Until I see a declaration and written proof that they did not steal the land from Jews, I will not buy or encourage others to buy their oil or other products.
I intend to tell all my friends in different churches to spread the word. If a boycott is good enough for British universities, it is good enough for me. No more Palestinian oil!
Don’t talk nonsense, Okie. Since when have Palestinian farmers in the West Bank been able to steal land from the Israelis?
Ooooooh, wise words from Mirth (with one wing covering his eyes from the truth). It seems that our sage likes to compare Baghdad to the Gulag but when it comes to the words of Sharansky there is SILENCE. Why is it? I am sure he has read the words of the Soviet Refusenik. I’ll bet he even cared when he was in prison. But heaven forbid the legendary Sharansky tell the anti-semitic anti zionists that a spade is a spade and he comes crying that “good people take a stand against injustice, call them an anti-semite!”
Yes, they are anti-semites. It is very simple. When they demonize, use a double standard or deligitimes Israel they are following in the steps described by Martin Luther King: : “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”
I see that you have to comment here because your blog is empty.
Charles apparently you can’t read a simple name but that’s another matter.
I’m part Jewish for your information.
I patiently await for you to call me a self loathing jew. Another specious attack argument for anyone who disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government. Punk…
I see that you have to comment here because your blog is empty.
And your blog is…..where?
“I patiently await for you to call me a self loathing jew. Another specious attack argument for anyone who disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government.”
Mirth, if the shoe fits, wear it!
LOL!!!!
D-day: Resort to name calling and ignore the issue
D-day: Punk…
No wonder your blog is empty.
The punk comment was inappropriate and I rescind it. The rest stays however.
Okay, the punk comment is back in.
That’s right Charles, I’m a self loathing anti-semite jew. I think what Israeli govt. is doing is wrong so that must be the only explanation for it.
Pretty soon those arguments of yours will begin to wear thin with people and that will be a bad day for Israel. What will happen if the American people will no longer support the criminal activity of that government?
The heart of Hebron is owned by the Schneerson family. it was stolen after the pogrom of 1929 when 67 Jews were slaughtered by Arabs. This is the land where yhe bus station an dcentral market are located prime land taken from the Jews after the pogrom.
There are many more examples
D-day. Our people will support Israel because that is the right thing to do. Europe has a sad history of turning their backs on the jews when it is convenient. Vichy is just one example.
Let’s stop the name calling. This will not help a discussion. D-day, you just said above that resorting to name calling is not good and then you “rescind” the punk comment then use it again. This is not a kindergarten.
Please excuse the typos in my post.
D-day: Resort to name calling and ignore the issue
D-day: Punk…
No wonder your blog is empty.
Okie you are right and I shouldn’t resort to name calling. I apologise but I am more sorry because I am tired of hearing all these arguments that make Israel to be nothing but an innocent victim of the big bad Arab man. Supporting Israel is only the right thing to do when they (the Israeli govt.) does right. They are not. More people have been displaced and killed by Israeli actions than Israeli’s have been killed or displaced by Palestinians. By a WIDE margin.
More and more Americans are waking up to that fact and patience is wearing thin.
You are using troll tactics Charles. That’s not name calling but just points out that you have no legitimate argument to make.
Where is your blog Charles? I’d like to see how “full” it is.
Okie, do you have any evidence that those families which were massacred lost olive groves?
D-day, I beg to differ. I spend a lot of time on the road, traveling our great land. I have to tell you that Israel is getting more and more support. People are tired of reading about children being blown up on buses and Kassams from Gaza. people are tired about hearing about western journalists being kidnapped in Gaza. They look at the Palestinians and wonder what they did with Gaza. They could have started building, they could hav eused the fact that the Israelis left to start growing and rebuilding. Instead, they are shooting rockets into Israel. They have lost the trust of most Americans I have met.
I don’t travel in right-wing circles. I have friends and business associates from across the political spectrum. I see a strong frustration with the war in Iraq and a strong dislike for Palestinians who only know violence.
Since 9/11 Americans have understood the danger f terrorists and make a direct connection between Palestinians and terrorists. It is not fair to paint them all with the same brush but nobody forced the Palestinians to elect Hamas, a group on virtually all western nations terrorists lists.
I am NOT making an accusation here, but I have to agree with what was written earlier. A lot of Americans look at Europeans as living in a world where anti-semitism is OK. They have bought in to hatred of Jews so much in the past that it is really hard to believe that all these people from the UK that are so concerned about the Palestinians but are not equally forceful about other causes. It is selective tears being shed and given the history it is not difficult to draw the connection between anti-semitism and European anti-zionism.
Joe,
The land I mentioned in Hebron is not used for olive groves. I understand it is the central market and bus station. Call it “downtown” Hebron, the core of the city. It is a lot more valuable than an olive grove. I will try and hunt down more information on the land. I believe it was purchased for the Rabbi of Lubavitch’s mother in law. The Rabbi wanted to reclaim it but (correct me if I am wrong on this) Gold Meyer would not allow him to use the land because she was afraid of upsetting the local Arab population that taken over the land.
Okie, in some circles Israel is getting more support and in others not. My point is though that it will not remain so if the Israeli govt. keeps acting like it is. I will hunt down some links for you that will show you what is going on there and once more and more Americans wake up to these facts, support will dwindle. I will repeat, supporting Israel is not the right thing to do. Neither is supporting the Palestinian authority for that matter. Terrorism comes in many forms, being an occupier is one that is often overlooked and lets face it, Israel is an occupier just as we are in Iraq.
Are Americans not tired of hearing about an Israeli missle strike hitting some suspected terrorists home or car and killing dozens (often women and children) in the process or do we only care about Israeli lives? Both sides are committing acts of terrorism. The difference is that one side is backed by the most powerful country on Earth.
When you say why didn’t the Palestiniand rebuild, I ask: rebuild with what? They barely are able to survive and don’t have the money or resources needed to rebuild. Putting up walls and restricting access to Palestinian areas is something Israel does and that makes the notion of rebuilding to be a pipedream.
btw, please don’t ask the question about why doesn’t Jordan or some of the other arab nations doesn’t take in the Palestinians. Not that you would but that would break things down. It’s an awful thing to even suggest.
Jamie, wadya think? Was the pogrom of 1929 “counterproductive”?
Oki, the poor Palestinians in Gaza can’t rebuild because they are busy shooting Kassams. They have wasted every opportunity to rebuild. The greenhouses that were a strong base of the Jewish economy in Gaza were DONATED to the people of Gaza. Jewish philanthropists purchased the greenhouses to kickstart the economy.
What did they do? They ransacked them. What do you expect?
Okie, I don’t know if you have seen Haniya’s house that was hit today by Fatah terrorists. I should live in such a beautiful home. I wouldn’t mind living in Rimal either. The palestinians are busy killing each other because they have a fence keeping them out of Israel. They thrive on violence and right now they are killing themselves but you don’t hear Joe or his shadow Jamie protest about the slaughter of poor palestinians by other palestinians. Have you been following the stories about how justice in meted out in Palestinian towns or the “honor killings”. Imagine someone throwing acid in their sister’s face for “honor”.
No, it is not the israelis that are the terrorists killing the palestinians, the palestinians are doing a great job on their own.
The death toll goes up every day and I am trying to figure out how Joe will blame the slaughter of palestinians by palestinians on the Jews. After all, it is all the fault of those Jews.
D-day I have to disagree. A missile strike against a terrorist that also might kill civilians because the terrorist is hiding amongst civilians is not the same as a suicide bomber killing women and children eating pizza.
Why were these greenhouses ransacked? It sounds like it could have been used to put people to work? I see lots of people with guns can’t the palestinian forces protect private property in Gaza?
D-day, again I have to respectfully disagree. Supporting Israel IS the right thing to do and it is also important to support moderate Palestinians that want to talk at the negotiating table. the ones that promote violence are criminals.
I heard on TV today that more Palestinians were killed in internal fighting and that 600 Palestinians have been killed by internal fighting since last year. That is a lot of dead people. This has to stop. If the Palestinians are not killing Jews they are killing other Palestionians. They can’t blame Isralis on that, they can choose not to kill.
Okie, don’t suggest Jordan taking in Palestinian refugees because after all, most Jordanians are Palestinians and the British Mandate included all of Jordan before Britain cut it off and gave it away as a prize to king without a kingdom.
Israel took in regugees from Iraq, Syriam Lebanon, Tunisia, Morroco, Algeria, Libya… the list goes on. Most were kicked out by the arab governments but Isralis would not think of keeping them in refugee camps and telling them that they will go back to their homes one day. No, Israel took them in, gave them citizenship and made them part of israeli society. The Arabs on the other hand, with 22 countries would not help.
They went to war against Israel in 1948 because they did not want to accept a Jewish nation. Abbas now talks about a country within the 1967 borders. They already had that and they rejected it, what makes israeli believe that it would be any different now?
Have you seen the stuff that the Arab countries spew? Jamie (the Jew) and Joe say it is not anti-semitism but just do a search on Google for: Arabs protocols of the Elders of Zion. You will see the garbage that is being produced, the books that are being sold and the TV shows that are being broadcast about the “Jewish conspiracy”.
To say this is not anti-semitism is a lie. It is the oldest basic anti-semitism. The kind that encouraged Pogroms against Jews, blood libels and persecution. jamie’s family would not have been immune from the pain caused by these actions and yet here it is, 2007 and Arab countries are dishing this stuff out.
Okie, they tell you that they are ksut pro-palestinian and not anti semitic but when you see that they are still pushing these lies about Jews using blood to make the passover matzahs it will be clear to you.
Okie, this is something that needs to be looked at.
http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/seperationmap_eng.swf
A few clicks to follow it along will help explain things.
It is from an Israeli peace site
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html
I used this site because as so many of the arguments here go, anything that questions the actions of the Israeli government is called anti-semetic which is the same bs argument that shills like Ann Coulter use to call anyone who disagreed with Bush and HIS Iraq war as “traitors”. Of course there are some who will look at this Israeli site and reach the knee-jerk reaction that they are self-hating jews. An even more dispicable argument to make but I will let them do it.
Yes Palestinians are killing each other too. They lived in bombed out houses, often without electricity and water. The area is a mess. I imagine their hatred of Israelis are clouding their judgement about the greenhouses Charles speaks of. I don’t know. I’d like for Charles to post a link about this if he would be so kind.
My last comment is awaiting moderation. Too many links perhaps.
It time I’m sure it will appear.
Good day to you all.
Looters strip Gaza greenhouses
Facilities seen as key to Palestinians’ rebuilding of area vacated by Israelis
NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip – Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.
American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.
Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/
D-day: “Yes Palestinians are killing each other too. They lived in bombed out houses, often without electricity and water. I thought Joe would blame Israel but it seems that D-day, the blogger without readers is here.
Then stop bombing the buildings. Simple. When you play with kassams and other dangerous toys they go off. When you aim them at civilians across the border the army of the civilians neing hit hit back.
Simple. Syop making bombs to kill civilians then maby you won’t have bombed out buildings.
BUT, even if you have bombed out buildings it does nnot givge you permission to slaughter SIX HUNDRED palestinians. More Palestinians have dies from the current Abbas Haniya fighting that as a result of Israeiis strikes against terrorists in Gaza.
Who is the bad guy?
So, it seems there is silence no response to our friends at the UN. What about the Arab countries that broadcast the Elders of Zion garbage? You see Okie, they don’t have answers. They will tell you it is Zionists they are against (well sometimes they will call them Jews) but when you look at the material coming out of Arab countries, it is PURE unadulaterated anti-semitism.
Okie, to put things in perspective, Gush Shalom is a tiny group of people that do not represent Israeli society. Take a look at their tiny entry in Wikipedia. Peace Now was another group that has almost disappeared since the Intifadah. You see, it is hard to find Israelis that will be supportive of the Palestinians when they send terrorists to kill Israeli children. Call me stupid but It sure makes sense to me. Why negotiate when they are killing your civilians. The USA would not negotiate with Ossam bin Laden, why should Israel negotiate with Hamas? Hamas is proad of the fact that they have send suicide bombers to kill Jews. jamie, finds it “counterproductive” but I call it a wrong.
Most Israelis would be willing to trade SOME of the west bank for peace but they don’t have anyone to deal with. Take a look, can they make deal with Abbas or Haniya that can’t even keep to ceasfire between them (yes D-day, it must be becasue they come from broken/bombed out homes). They are both killing each other and are in no position to negotiate.
After the palestinians have their civil war they will have leader that can sit down with Israel. They have to go through their civil war first and decide if they want to have more violence or peace. It is up to them.
Are you serious that no one can find any mention of this *anywhere* on the BBC? As a North American continually depressed by shoddy coverage in our press system on this side of the Atlantic, I have long held the BBC as the closest mainstream “everything-that’s-fit-to-publish” source in the english-speaking world. Bugger
.
(Please post on here if you do actually find some BBC mention of this demonstration; it would provide some relief for me.)
Palestinians Shot by Their Own Side, Healed by Israel – Charles Levinson (Sunday Telegraph-UK)
In Gaza, Aref Suleiman was raised on Palestinian struggle against the Jewish state. Today he lies in an Israeli hospital bed in Ashkelon, his body riddled with Palestinian bullets, his wounds tended daily by Israeli nurses.
“Palestinians shoot me and Jews treat me,” he laughs bitterly. “It was supposed to be different.”
“The Jews are like honey, like flowers,” he says. “They wash me, clean me, and change my gown every day. Even in my home, my own family wouldn’t change me every day.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/10/wirq310.xml
The Guidebook for Taking a Life_
(http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/weekinreview/10moss.html) – Michael Moss and Souad Mekhennet
We were in a small house in Zarqa, Jordan, trying to interview two heavily
bearded Islamic militants about their distribution of recruitment videos when
one of us asked one too many questions. “He’s American?” one of the militants
growled. “Let’s kidnap and kill him.” But before anyone could act on this
impulse, the rules of jihadi etiquette kicked in. You can’t just slaughter a
visitor. You need permission from whoever arranges the meeting. And in this case, the
arranger who helped us to meet this pair declined to sign off. “He’s my
guest,” Marwan Shehadeh, a Jordanian researcher, told the bearded men.
The rules of jihad etiquette have some general themes. Suicide bombers have
long been called martyrs, a locution that avoids the Koran’s ban on killing
oneself in favor of the honor it accords death in battle against infidels. Here
are five of the more striking jihadi tenets, as militant Islamists describe
them:
Rule No. 1: You can kill bystanders without feeling a lot of guilt.
Rule No. 2: You can kill children, too, without needing to feel distress.
Rule No. 3: Sometimes, you can single out civilians for killing; bankers are
an example.
Rule No. 4: You cannot kill in the country where you reside unless you were
born there.
Rule No. 5: You can lie or hide your religion if you do this for jihad.
(New York Times)
Bilbo: I just checked again and unfortunately, it seems that the BBC have yet to cover it (which means they probably aren’t going to). They might have talked about it on the radio or something, but no articles. They were evidently far too busy reporting on Paris Hilton’s prison exploits and the 700 naked cyclists who were also briefly in the square that day to bother mentioning one of the biggest ‘pro-Palestinian’ demonstrations in London’s history.
Palestinians committing WAR CRIMES? Nah, it couldn’t be. They are the victims of the Zionist Entity’s (TM) occupation. Let’s hear the condemnation from Jamie (a Jew) and the others on this blog. After all, Palestinians are being killed. Forget that these war crimes are being done by Fatah and Hamas, both elected democratically by the palestinian peope.
I guess those bombed out houses have encourged more Palestinians to execute other Palestinians. What is it about those houses that cause Palestinians to kill others:
“The Human Rights Watch organization Wednesday condemned Hamas and Fatah for committing “serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes” in violence in Gaza in recent days.
It also took the Islamic Jihad and the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades to task for a June 9 incident in which gunmen used a jeep bearing “TV” insignias to allow them to approach and attack an IDF post in southern Israel, calling it a “serious violation of the laws of war.”
“In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals,” the organization said in a statement.”
I condemn all violence that is currently occuring in Gaza.
Charles, are you saying that you take note of reports from Human Rights Watch?
Joe,
HRW suffers from the same illness that other NGOs suffer from. They are not balanced when it comes to Israel. As you know, they were involved in the conference in Durban which became a hatefest.
I do applaud their campaign to elminate the use of landmines. I spent some time in Africa doing humanitarian work and a friend of mine went over a landmine.
I have been in touch with them concerning the work we do in Africa. There are some possible tinderboxes that could explode and end up in populations being slaughtered. HRW have some people on the ground that have helped with gathering information that we need to prove our case.
Sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t. I have worked closely with a number of NGOs doing humanitarian relief work and some are excellent, some are not and some should never be allowed to work in the field.
Rrrrriiiiggghhhtt…
What does: “Rrrrriiiiggghhhtt…” mean?
Given a choice of believing your pick-and-mix policy of international human rights – which essentially comes down to ‘this is true because I say so’ – and accepting the views of respected independant international human rights groups including the ICRC, HRW and Amnesty International, there is no contest.
If these groups say this stuff is happening, there is no reason for anyone to argue.
Then you just agreed that Hamas and Fatah are guilty of war crimes. Let’s see all your posts on the subject. tell your lackey Jamie what to think…
Your approach is pathetic. SIX HUNDRED PALESTINIANS dead and you say: I condemn all violence that is currently occuring in Gaza. The NGO that you believe says that they are committing war crimes and summarily executing captives and your limp response is: “I condemn all violence that is currently occuring in Gaza.”
Your name here is linked to a website selling palestinian clothing. If people thought that Palestinians were involved in war crimes (according to HRW, which you obviously trust) then could it be that freedom clothing would suffer financially if people stopped buying the palestinian items? Where is your site supporting those that stop the war crimes and try and put the fatah and hamas terrorists out of business?
Joe, you lost the argument when you compared Jews to Nazis. I would keep quiet on Palestinian/Israeli issues. Write what you know about and stop spewing the three D’s.
Charles, at no point did I compare Jews with Nazis. Palestinian refugee camps are not death camps like Auschwitz. I have never, nor would ever, make this comparison.
You need to take some remedial lessons in English comprehension.
I linked to a company – actually a non-profit co-operative – I set up to work with Palestinian clothing manufacturers. Funnily enough, the people who make my clothes are not involved in war crimes because they are busy making clothing rather than shooting the hell out of each other. They are not even in Gaza either.
I’m not really bothered what you do, Charles. I am very open about where my clothing comes from. If people don’t like it, they don’t buy it. That is fair enough.
I don’t give a flying peanut about your three Ds. I do, however, have utmost respect for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and statements of fact from ICRC, HRW and others. If you want to interpret things I have not said, then that is your problem.
Q. Are you antisemitic and/or against the state of Israel?
A. “….No-one is free until everyone is free, as Martin Luther King Junior once said.”
We know what MLK said about anti semites/anti zionists.
From another site: Martin Luther King Junior was a giant of the modern civil rights movement and an inspiration to all who seek to follow in his footsteps.
Anti-semites do not follow in MLK’s footsteps,
Martin Luther King said: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.
I find it interesting when people hold up MLK to be a giant of human rights EXCEPT on the issue of Israel. It is kind of like picking and mixing….
No, listen – Israel should go back to the 1967 borders and remove their illegal settlements in the West Bank and stop the harassment of Palestinians so they can build their own state.
What MLK said on or before 1967 about this is largely irrelevant.
Take your groundless accusations and your empty words and try applying them to people who a) are actually anti-semitic and deny the holocaust b) do not accept the existance of Israel at all c) actually care what you think anyway.
Meanwhile, I am going to stand on the side of HRW, the ICRC and the others. I will continue highlighting the effects that Israel – as an occupying force – is having on the lives of ordinary Palestinians, and how this is destroying hope just as they do.
Joe,
Although you might be a big supporter of Martin Luther King you are quite ignorant of his work.
Martin Luther King said at an Harvard University :
“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.” in 1968.
In my calendar 1968 comes AFTER the the Six Day War of 1967.
How many settlements were in the West Bank in 1967?
Below is a January 21, 2002 op-ed by U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who worked closely with Dr. King. In the op-ed, he shares Dr. King’s views on Israel, views which stressed Israel’s democratic nature and Israel’s need for security. And he also relates that Dr. King said, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
Monday, January 21, 2002 (San Francisco Chronicle)
“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East
King’s Special Bond with Israel
by John Lewis
THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.
This message was true in his time and is true today.
He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.
King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”
Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”
During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israel — Arab conflict, stating “Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East,
On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”
During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.
Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”
During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”
King taught us many lessons. As turbulence continues to grip the Middle East, his words should continue to serve as our guide. I am convinced that were he alive today he would speak clearly calling for an end to the violence between Israelis and Arabs.
He would call upon his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winner, Yasser Arafat, to fulfill the dream of peace and do all that is within his power to stop the violence.
He would urge continuing negotiations to reduce tensions and bring about the first steps toward genuine peace.
King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.
As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.”
The settlements are not illegal.
International law confirms that land acquired in a defensive war may be kept by the victim of aggression.
Mr. Kontorovich (teaches international law as an assistant professor at George Mason University School of Law, and currently as a visiting professor at the University of Chicago.) wrote: ” Because self-defense is an “inherent right” under the U.N. Charter, many international law scholars maintain that territory taken in a defensive war can be kept — this further serves the goal of deterring aggression.”
The West Bank is not “occupied in the classic sense.” It was not sovereign Jordanian territory before 1967 and it had not enjoyed legal status since the British mandate, which had the remit, underpinned by the League of Nations, of establishing a Jewish national home. The Palestine Mandate set aside all of Palestine including Judea and Samaria (and Transjordan) for “close settlement of the Jewish people” and the Geneva Convention can in way way interfere with such rights.
Whether the settlements are legal or illegal is a matter of law for a court with Jurisdiction to decide. Not for Joe or Jamie to decide. No such court exists. The ICJ is not seized of the matter nor will it be. What the UN resolutions say can in no way determine what is or is not lawful. Its resolutions have no force of law. Nor does an advisory opinion of the ILC.
While we are correcting misconceptions, Jamie, Please correct your quote for July 8, 2006. It is a hoax.
The hoax quote is:
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
David Ben-Gurion, 1886-1973″
Hoax Quote
In addition, the MSU unabashedly used a fake quote to promote their Anti-Zionism Week. The publicity material included the following alleged quote attributed to former Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion: “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
Phil Schlesinger, a UC Irvine student, requested a source for the alleged statement. In a June 2 email, MSU representative Fatima Ibrahim claimed that Ben-Gurion made the statement to his General Staff in May 1948, and she cited the “Koenig Report,” a leaked 1976 policy report by Israel Koenig, the Northern District Commissioner of Israel’s Interior Ministry.
In a second email that day, she advised Schlesinger to “read the memorandum closely and if you still can’t find it, you can tell me and I will bring the whole memorandum with the quote pointed out.”
CAMERA provided Schlesinger with the “Koenig Report” which does not contain the alleged statement or any other by Ben-Gurion. When confronted with this information, Ibrahim revised her story:
first of all I am not going to spend time 1 week before finals to search for the quote (which is your responsibility)…the quote is a famous quote that can be looked up in many books such as “BEN-GURION, A BIOGRAPHY”, by Michael Ben-Zohar [sic].
“Remember,” she added, “that the Koenig Report was your initial suggestion, which is not where WE got it from.”
CAMERA contacted Bar-Zohar, who confirmed that the “quote definitely isn’t” in his book. Schlesinger requested that the MSU retract the quote, but the group has so far refused.
http://tinyurl.com/3dzc3y
I’m sorry run that by me again – you’re suggesting that taking land, building civilian houses, encouraging settlers, in the process endangering water supplies and travel of the indigenous occupied population is not illegal??
Under which statute is that legal?
Joe asked: How many settlements were in the West Bank in 1967?
In May 1948 the Jews of Kfar Ezion (except for 4 people) were massacred by the Arabs.
In June 1967 Gush Ezion was won in a defensive war.
In September of 1967 Kfar Ezion was reestablished.
I will remind you that the land was not won in battle from the Nation of Palestine. It was won in a defensive war against Jordan. Why was it that Jordan did not create a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967?
Let me ask a simple question. If the Arabs were not willing to accept partition and a state in 1948 why should they now accept a state in the 1967 borders. There is no difference in the argument between now and 1948. And why should Israel even entertain the idea of a Palestinian state when teh charter of the terrorists who were choisen to run their government declare that they intend to wipe Israel off the map and any state that is accepted is just a temporary state until they wipe Israel off the map.
Now the two halves of the government are fighting each other and committing war crimes.
Is the “democratically elected” government that you support?
Joe, if you did not understand my post I suggest you reread it.
The land that was “taken” was won in a defensive war. Civilians live in Judea and Samaria but were not forced to move there. If your argument is that more Jews living in their land endangers water then the same argument applies to Arabs living in Judea and Samaria.
As far as “indiginous” I suggest you not go there because the palestinians are NOT the indiginous people of Israel. If you believe it we have a lit of talking to do on the topic.
As far as the ability of Arabs to travel freely in israel, yes, I agree, it is a problem. Then again, it is a problem for anyone when the palestinian terrorists try and get into Israeli cities to blow themselves up and kill children. Checkpoints stop them. In fact, since the checkpoints were instituted and the fence was built (it is only partially built) Palestinian suicide trrorists have had a hard time getting through. Israel has every right to defend themselves.
Do they make mistake? Yes, of course. But so do London cops who put 5 bullets in the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian electrician on his way to work. Oops.
Joe, have you been watching the news today? It is getting worse.
If Hamas conquers Gaza are they “occupying” the land? Will Fatah complain that the land that was given to the palestinians when israel pulled out last year, now occupied again?
Will Fatah fight the “occupation” or is that what is happening right now.
I don’t mean to poke fun at what is going on, I condemn all violence that is currently occuring in Gaza. I believe what Kadija wrote was correct. It is all about a bunch of guys in rich neighborhoods who don’t really care about their people. It is about power and monet and the little guy (on both sides of the border) suffer.
NEWS: At least 15 Palestinians, including a United Nations relief worker, were killed Wednesday as Hamas sought to complete its conquest of the entire Gaza Strip.
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said the wake of the killings of its staff that it was suspending most of its activities in Gaza. Another UNRWA employee was killed in clashes Tuesday.
UNRWA said it couldn’t distribute food to the 30 percent of the Gaza Strip that relies on international food aid.
I am not going to continue responding to your absurd munterings.
I’d ask everyone to consider why there are so many people in Gaza relying on handouts. Ten times as many trucks full of goods are allowed into the Gaza strip as are allowed out. Most trucks going across the border back into Israel are empty. If this is a sign that the Israeli government actually wants peace, then it is a very strange way to show it.
Maybe if they stopped planting bombs on the trucks more good would be allowed out, Today a preganant suicide terrorist was arrested trying to enter Israel from Gaza.
Maybe if terrorists did not ransack the greenhouses that Jewish philanthropists bought for the palestinians they would not have to rely on handouts.
Maybe if Arab countries would have helped these Arabs by making them citizens as Israel did to the 800,000 refugees from Arab countries the situation would be different.
Martin Luther King (MLK) never did say that being anti-zionist was akin to being anti-semitic or anti-jewish! This entire idea is total bollocks. The origin was a hoax and still is. No-one has any evidence at all that MLK said it, because he did not!
Anyone still perpetuating this stupid story should be taken gently by the hand to a quiet room and locked in for their own protection and others.
Zionism has as much to do with Judaism as Christianity has to do with chocolate rabbits at Easter, probably less. Zionism is a political movement with immense, out of proportion, power in the world, and a will to abuse this power in ways which evade even the closest scrutiny. Anyone who even questions certain historic events gets locked up to silence them. A British man was sentenced to three years in a German prison because he wrote and published a book. He was given three years in prison for OPINION! Think about that. Now think about it again … Certain Zionist organisations were all out to have his sentence INCREASED, for an OPINION.
This was not, and indeed is not, a very pleasant man. He is the kind of man I would counter leaflet were he to go out and deliver his brand of hatred down my street. He is also a man (one of very few in this world) I would smile should he ever get a swift hard blow to his nose. I am, as you may gather, not a fan! Yet he should be able to argue his points and publish his books and declare that pink is green, if he so desires. I guess that you know by now that this man wrote a book challenging the ‘official’ view of world history with regard to the holocaust, or as it’s been known since about 1967, the Holocaust. Whether he is right or wrong NO-ONE should be silenced for an opinion. I thought this is what WW1 and WW2 were all about?
Salaam. Shalom. Peace to all.
I see the hard core fans of the Protocols are checking in. Did you take the pink pills or the blue ones?
Martin Luther said it in front of a lot of people at Harvad. If you can read, check out “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24.
I go away for a day and found so many posts, I am not sure whereto start.
I am watching the news about Gaza today and see that 24 people have been killed. There are times when the veneer of a society is taken away and you see what is underneath. In this case it is not pretty. I have read that if a Fatah member gives up his gun he is allowed to live, otherwise he is EXECUTED! This is from Hamas and Hamas were the the ones that were democratically elected. Jimmy Carter must be upset now.
I will try and review some of the material you kind people posted and get back to you.
Blessings
Charles, I don’t know if the settlements are illegal or not. I do know that borders can change and that after WWII there were many “adjustments” between Finland and Russia, Poland and Germany…. Even if there are lines drawn after 67 the borders can change to accommodate Jewish and Arab populations that are on either side of the border. I once read a great article that proposed a peace plan involving all the countries in th eregion. Each would give a little piece of land and each would receive. They would each not necessarily receive from the country they gave to, sometimes they would receive from another country.
It involved everyone sitting and talking with each other.
Here’s a Salon article about the 6 day war (1967).
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/06/04/six_day_war/index_np.html
Kinda throws your whole defensive war theories out the window Charles. Of course I suppose Salon and the US government/LBJ administration are no doubt anti-Zionists too. Convenient to have such a broad stroke huh?
History is written by the victors.
The truth be damned…….
I see that Mirth is back from NC to make us laugh. Consider the source.
Mirth, when you fly with only one wing, you fly in circles.
D-day,
I recall the tension leading up to that period. When the Egyptians closed the straits and kicked out the UN observers you KNEW the proverbial **** was going to hit the fan. I am talking about reading it in history books, I was around at the time and even I as a simple citizen knew that Egypt was calling for a showdown.
Okie, I will address you. If you read the article you will see that while there was a lot of public saber rattling by Egypt, behind the scenes Egypt was trying to prevent the conflict. What the public (you) sees is not always the reality. Israel wanted the war and they got it.
The latest news from the peace-loving cousins in Gaza is that they interupted a surgery because they needed to kill the man being operated on. Hey, why waste OR time?
End the Occupation of Gaza!Hey, how can they be occupied when Hamas were democratically elected by the people?
Joe wrote: Given that Hamas was elected in the fairest election in the Middle East…
Joe, does Hamas have the right to occupy Gaza if they were elected “in the fairest election in the Middle East…”? Is it actually an occupation or is it a coup as Abbas is calling it?
Maybe we are looking at a THREE state solution because the Palestinian terrorists can’t even get alond with each other, let alone Israel.
Jamie, is the “Anti-Occupation Demonstration in London” you are advertising, against the HAMAS OCCUPATION?
* Note from jewish-history.com: We searched the archive of Saturday Review where this letter allegedly was published. This periodical is a weekly, not a monthly, so there were four issues published during the month of August, 1967. Of these four issues, two contained 76 or more pages. On p. 76 of one issue, were classified ads, on p. 76 of the other issue, a review of the Beatles album Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. There were no articles by Dr. King on Zionism or any other topic. Nor is there any anthology of Martin Luther King entitled This I Believe.
http://www.jewish-history.com/mlk_zionism.html
I’ve looked all around for info on the MLK jr quote that has been repeated ad-nauseum here and called a hoax by Ged B up thread. There seems to be a HUGE propaganda battle on various websites about this and it is damn hard to discern the truth with so much out there. One thing that has become apparent is that the quote itself is a hoax or lie or whatever you want to call it. There are those who supposedly knew King and verify that the quote matches his feelings but the source of the quote does not in fact exist
It’s not v. important, anyhow. If he said it, he was wrong. ‘Nuff said.
D-day, it must be all that flying with one wing that you did not understand the quote. The web reference you posted is a taken from CAMERA. They wrote that “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” is a hoax but in the SAME paragraph wrote:
“Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax. Although, the basic message of the letter WAS INDEED WEITHOUT QUESTION, SPOKEN BY MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. IN A 1968 APPEARANCE AT HARVARD, WHERE HE SAID: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.” [from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ]. (EMPHASIS MINE) You see, they are talking about two seperate quotes. One is a hoax and one is real. Admirable that they did the investigation of the quotes and published the truth arther than let it go.
I suggest that when you post something, you take the time to read the material completely and not skim. If you are not sure, have someone else read it before you post. This also tells me that you had to check it out because many anti-zionists are ashamed to realize that one of the greatests leaders of human rights connected anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
Jamie,
That July 8/06 quote of the day by Ben Gurion is still posted on your blog. It should be removed because it is a hoax. Do you want written proof from Bar-Zohar himself? You had no way of knowing that the anti Zionist quote was a hoax. ‘Nuff said.
From Camera:
Phil Schlesinger, a UC Irvine student, requested a source for the alleged statement. In a June 2 email, MSU representative Fatima Ibrahim claimed that Ben-Gurion made the statement to his General Staff in May 1948, and she cited the “Koenig Report,” a leaked 1976 policy report by Israel Koenig, the Northern District Commissioner of Israel’s Interior Ministry.
In a second email that day, she advised Schlesinger to “read the memorandum closely and if you still can’t find it, you can tell me and I will bring the whole memorandum with the quote pointed out.”
CAMERA provided Schlesinger with the “Koenig Report” which does not contain the alleged statement or any other by Ben-Gurion. When confronted with this information, Ibrahim revised her story:
first of all I am not going to spend time 1 week before finals to search for the quote (which is your responsibility)…the quote is a famous quote that can be looked up in many books such as “BEN-GURION, A BIOGRAPHY”, by Michael Ben-Zohar [sic].
“Remember,” she added, “that the Koenig Report was your initial suggestion, which is not where WE got it from.”
CAMERA contacted Bar-Zohar, who confirmed that the “quote definitely isn’t” in his book. Schlesinger requested that the MSU retract the quote, but the group has so far refused.
http://tinyurl.com/3dzc3y
Anti-Hamas Occupation Demonstration, London « Tomorrow? Don’t let terrorists occupy Gaza
OK, Charles, it’s deleted – even though I think that you are probably the only person to have actually read it since it was posted.
Jamie,
Thanks for the correction.
Jamie wrote: Lessons In Rejectionism14Apr07
[Israel] did so by adopting the language of the “war on terror” and labelling Hamas a “terrorist organisation” … and inventing … three “principles” Hamas had to fulfil before Israel considered them a suitable partner for talks.
Jamie, after you have seen the news coming out of Gaza today do you actually think for a moment that Hamas is a suitable partner for “talks”?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C9F67DD1-D25A-412A-B8E4-733B1CC0CE41.htm
Welcome back Canuck.
I have also been watching the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people, who were elected by the Palestinians. They have been executing people on the streets of Gaza.
It is strange how when Palestinians are killing Jews they are fighting because they have the “right to resist the occupation”, yet when they are executing Fatah are they resisting a Fatah occupation?
Jamie: “That Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation, using violence if necessary, is not a matter of opinion. It’s not something over which we can agree or disagree. They do have that right.”
Since Hamas and Fatah are both in the unity government is this a coup against itself?
I have to tell you that I am disgusted at the lot of you. Here some of you have been going on about the poor Palestinians, Joe has even gone so far as to try and help their economy by importing palestinian garments and I don’t hear a word about a protest rally to stop the new occupation of Gaza by Hamas terrorists. What a bunch of hypocrites.
You have proven true every word that I have written here.
Joe, Mirth & Jamie, D-day and all the other bloggers here who cried over the spilled blood of Palestinians and stood there idly while Jewish blood was spilled, listen up. How often did you claim that israel was oppressing the poor Palestinians. How often did you justify what the Palestinian terrorists were doing in the name of “resistance”.
They are not using violence to fight the occupation by Israel because Israel pulled out a year ago.
The case has become so simple. Khadijja was so correct. These guys are fighting for power not for the little guy. They have used the people who supported them and just pissed all over you.
You helped their cause, you protested, handed out leaflets, posted to blogs and they just pissed all over you. You were used again and again to promote a cause that is controlled by some very bad people. You spoke out against Israel as if they were the bad guys. Oh, the excuses I heard:
“They lived in bombed out houses, often without electricity and water.”
“The area is a mess.”
“…their hatred of Israelis are clouding their judgement…”
Bottom line, if you continue to criticize Israel the way you did till now, you really show your true colours.
Jamie, you are a Jew. Arab terrorists would cut off your head like they did to Daniel Pearl in an instant. Your pro-Palestinian blog would not save your life. Think about that when you post your next entry. Think about all the Palestinians who were taken into the streets of Gaza today and executed in front of their wives and children. Not because they were “occupying” Gaza.
Jamie, today was a sobering day. The party is over, the true colours have been revealed and there is no human with a brain in their head who can now go along with the palestinian agenda without being equally critical of the palestinians themselves for electing a terrorist government and using violence to achieve their means.
Charles,
Your post was brilliant!
Why is there a double standard amongst anti zionists?
Could it be that they are not really anti-zionist, they are really anti-semites?
No couldn’t be.
both were abducted by Israel and are currently rotting in Israeli jails, along with more than a third of the elected members of the 132-seat Palestinian Legislative Council.
Actually they are probably happy to be there because they are safe and do not have to worry about being murdered by their own people. The barbaric behavior they exhibit is very telling.
Ozymandias,
Interesting how they are getting a taste of their own medicine.
The astute Israeli journalist (she must be a “self-hating Jew, she doesn’t toe the tired Likudnik line spouted by blogless online identity-unverifiable GIYUS trolls Charles et al — and Khadija likely too) noted that the current troubles in Gaza are the unmistakable result of Israeli and US neocon “divide and rule” tactics. She and others have rightly noted, even as logic escapes the aforementioned ideologues, that “those who tear out the peoples eyes condemn them for being blind” (see especially Can you really not see? and Their power of endurance).
Despite the fact that the neocons in Washington and Tel Aviv have done everything to foment factional violence and facilitate arms supplies to quisling Abbas, the resilience of the Palestinians for so long in the face of deprivation of food, movement, electricity, basic services, aid and economic development is a remarkable testament to humanity.
I also find some grim satisfaction in noting that despite all these hegemonial efforts with all their resources at their disposal to undermine and destroy Hamas, Hamas has seized control. The US neocons wanted to ’sink Hamas’; Netanyahu’s latest despicable exhortation to shut off water to Palestinians is also illustrative. What is happening is a US-Israeli proxy war, yet Hamas have still apparently seized control. If the US and Israel had respected their democratic mandate and not interfered, we may not see this happening. But ask not for whom the bell tolls, because blowback is likely.
Its funny how the troll voices of Judeofascism are becoming more desperate, and presume to accord to themselves the right to hijack other blogs as a platform to harass. Richard Silverstein and Norman Finkelstein also know all about that. Is this how Jews treat one another?
“Barbaric behaviour” somewhat suggests that the Arabs are genetically predisposed toward violence, but you wouldn’t be so racist would you? Sounds like Demonisation and Double standards to me. Sharansky doesn’t have the trademark in formulating that schema. These trolls may shrilly cry “three D’s” but have no shame in employing it themselves.
And the sheer weight of falsities attached to it — no, it is not anti-Semitic to not focus on Dafur or to choose to focus on the longest running military occupation in modern history. Of course, in their fascist mentality, the trolls would wish to circumscribe the content of our posts and interests as well. Here’s another D for you: DEFLECTION.
No, Israel did not completely withdraw from the Gaza Strip, they retained many stifling aspects of control.
Jamie, as a fellow WP use you know that WP keeps track of follow-up comments made on other blogs. Except for the intelligent contributions of yourself, Joe, Mirth and GedB et. al., we have been subjected to these moronic and seemingly never-ending circular arguments. It is your blog and your choice, but should you wish to cut the oxygen from time-wasting trolls, simply go to your Dashboard: Options: Discussion. The foot of that page will have a blacklist wherein you can insert IP addresses to block. I’ve only had to use it once but it is a great provision.
best wishes,
Ann
Palestinian source said:
“They declare an area a closed military zone and shoot anyone who goes out into the street. Hamasniks strip Fatah men they capture, humiliate and beat them. They go from door to door with lists to hunt down Fatah people and execute them.”
It appears that the Palestinians are trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
I just heard that Hamas has set up checkpoints across Gaza and everyone has to go through them. They have lists of people that if found, are beaten or executed.
There are some clans that are being targeted for death. Yesteday three women, aged 13, 19 and 75 were hunted down in arefugee camp, taken out to the street and executed.
Joe, this is the party that was as you said: “elected fair and square”.
The “zionist” tried to warn the world that Hamas were cold-blooded murderers. Instead we had threats of boycotts, fun domonstrations in London and silly blogs that condemn Israel.
Time to wake up kids.
“I just heard” does not qualify as a serious source — its you being silly, not the blogs. Hamas are no more purposely cold blooded killers than the IDF are. Time for you to wake up, Chuck.
Hamas have gained control despite the best efforts of the Israel and US neocon overlords to set up a puppet Fatah government. Time for you to wake up Charkes and take your imperious blinders off. Better still, shut up so for once you might have a semi-intelligent moment.
Aussie,
If you had the ability to read you would be able to pick up a newspaper and read the first hand reports on people being slaughtered in Gaza.
Amazing how you believe newspaper reports about the “coldblooded killers” of the IDF but don’t believe the reposrts of Hamas killers.
Of course you can’t, because you are so busy hating Jews you can’t ascertain the truth.
Crawl back Aussie and let the adults talk.
Ann,
Welcome to the funny farm.
It must be scary living in world of conspiracies with necons and zionists lurking behind every IP.
Your post is so full of lies, half truths and psychotic ramblings I won’t even go there. Reread the previous posts and if have not useful to say then post where the sun don’t shine.
Thanks Ann – I didn’t know about that IP ‘blacklist’ feature, and I certainly intend to make use of it.
israHELL keep playing victims while cleaning palestine from muslims , for 1400 year and still today jews and christian live with muslim and under muslim rule in peace like in lebanon , the idea of a pure jew state is a zionist idea and the way zionists are achieving this sick idea is killing murdering and destroying , don t start ur bullshit of israel have the right to defend itself SO DOES THE palestinian , i m sorry to break the news to u BUT U ARE NOT SUPERIOR to them
forcefully, I must have to say that I support for israel…cheeerrr